Monte Irvin interview
Date1988 August 02
DescriptionTwo audio cassettes featuring an interview with Monte Irvin conducted by Rod Roberts on behalf of the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York on August 2, 1988.
Object numberHF-1994-0001-019
Interviewer
Roberts, Rod
Interviewee
Irvin, Monte, 1919-2016
Subject
Irvin, Monte, 1919-2016
Classificationsaudio/visual materials
Collection NumberBA RMA 001 Rod Roberts oral history collection
Library Call NumberCTA 843
Library Call NumberCTA 844
Dimensions2 audio cassettes
TrannscriptionCassette 1Side One -- Track 1 - Born in a little town, Haleburg, Alabama, outside of Columbia; Feb. 25, 1919; at age of 6-7 his family moved to Albany, GA, and then moved to Bloomfield NJ for a year and then settled in Orange NJ until he retired in 1984; lived in one town some 60 years; 10 kids in the family, four girls and six boys; mother and father both lived to 87; father always provided the best he could, never asked for assistance even during the Depression; kids used to do odd jobs; attended Orange High School; he got an athletic scholarship to Lincoln University in Oxford, Pennsylvania, attended for a year and a half, until he started to play professional baseball in the Negro League; in 1949 signed to play with the Jersey City Giants of the International League; July of that year, Irvin, Hank Thompson and Wes Westermann were all called up to the parent club (NY Giants) in the Major Leagues; played four sports in high school, made all-state in all sports in high school (00:00:00 to 00:04:01) Track 2 - His father was a maintenance man at a dairy, got his two brothers jobs at the dairy, an honest, steady job, $18-$20 a week; he was a sharecropper in the South and he never could get out of debt, didn't work for a nice man; father felt that there would be no future for his kids if they stayed there; his sister got married and left; then his brother left, and they sent money back and the saved that money, so they all could leave, left secretly and moved to NJ in summer of 1927; he was the third youngest in the family, sister Pearl was oldest, three oldest were girls, all born in Alabama, youngest brother Cal became athletic director at A&T University in Greensboro, Jesse Jackson's alumnus (00:04:01 to 00:07:23) Track 3 - All his brothers played sports, three youngest became athletes in high school and got scholarships, brother Milton attended Virginia State, and Cal went to Morgan State and transferred to University of Illinois; he went to Lincoln before signing to play with the Newark Eagles; in Essex County and the Oranges, they had a Suburban League, and each town had its own park and its own team, known as the Twilight League, a lot of interest and a lot of talent; passed a hat to pay the umpires, for travel expenses and to pay for uniforms; his brother worked for a company, and he was able to get a job with an industrial team where he was a star pitcher; Irvin used to go to those games and he inspired him to play baseball (00:07:23 to 00:11:03) Track 4 - (Interviewer talks about industrial baseball teams) Irvin says some teams in the Negro Leagues paid well, but others didn't, so people stuck with industrial jobs; a good salary was $150 a month; if you were good enough you were invited to play in a winter league in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Santo Domingo, Mexico some unbelievable talent there in the early ‘30s up until the War; then here was a hiatus, then you had guys like (Willie?) Mays, (Roberto?) Clemente, (Hank?) Aaron, (Minnie?) Minoso, (Larry?) Doby, Jackie Robinson, (Roy) Campanella (00:11:03 to 00:13:22) Track 5 - On getting started in the Negro League, he was scouted when he was playing in the Twilight League; the owner of the team, Abe Manley came to visit him at home and they went across the street to the YMCA and he asked him to play for the Eagles, Willie Wells, Ray Dandridge, Leon Day, Len Pearson; other Negro League teams were also interested in him, so he asked for a bonus, and the owner said no, and offered him $100 a month to start, so he accepted; Manley owned the Brooklyn Eagles and transferred the team to Sprague Field, later on played at Ruppert Stadium, where the Newark Bears played for the International League, they had a terrific club, in 1937, they lost the first three games against the Columbus Cardinals, with Enos Slaughter, and won the next four (00:13:22 to 00:17:37) Track 6 - On Abe Manley's wife, Effa Manley, very pretty, knowledgeable and interesting person; she was the administrator and he did the scouting; they were penny-wise and pound-foolish, should have built their own club to have a place for the players to work in the winter; Mr. Manley was a number banker, one of the few ways you could become comfortable, then he did well in real estate in Camden and Norfolk, didn't want to lose any money so he was very conservative (00:17:37 to 00:20:37) Track 7 - Only played for the Eagles, started in 1937 when he was still in college, only played on the road under an assumed name so he didn't lose his amateur status; at home, he'd work out with the team and then sit in the stands; in 1939, he went to spring training and became a full-fledged member of the team; a hard decision, because he wanted to coach, wanted to teach, he was a good student, but was tired of being broke and didn't get along well with the coach/athletic director at the college; so he made the move; he's sorry he didn't get his degree, but Lincoln is giving him an honorary degree (00:20:37 to 00:22:56) Track 8 - The Negro League players never thought they would be given the chance to play in the Major Leagues; some guys were so good, they became paranoid about not being allowed to play in the Majors; the situation until Branch Rickey made his move; Washington Senators manager Claude Griffith had an opportunity with the Homestead Grays, with great players like Josh Gibson, Buck Leonard, Raymond Brown, Roy Partlow, Tom Parker, and they played in Griffith Stadium, the Washington Senators could have become a pennant contender if he had signed some of those Grays' players, but he couldn't go against the owners (00:22:56 to 00:26:40) Track 9 - (Contains profanity) It was a sign of the times, the managers didn't have the foresight at the time to bring up the black players; blacks couldn't eat in the same restaurants or sleep in the same hotels; but no one was ready for integration; same thing in the Army until President Truman ended segregation; talk about a democratic society and go to school and learn about fair play, and then the moment you graduate, you're discriminated against, what the hell kind of system is that; basketball's Bill Russell said it well; it happened to Irvin, he brought great honor to his city, played and got a lot of publicity for the city, the night he graduated, he and his friends went to a restaurant and they wouldn't let them in, in Orange, NJ, they felt terrible about it; at the theater, the blacks had to sit upstairs; there was discrimination throughout the town; when he joined organized baseball and the New York Giants went to spring training in St. Petersburg, the black players couldn't stay with the team; he went to Eddie Brannick, the traveling secretary, and asked why they were treated so badly; segregation was a state law; later on when George Steinbrenner bought the Yankees and they wouldn't let Elston Howard stay in a hotel in St. Petersburg, so Steinbrenner moved the club to Fort Lauderdale; conversely, in 1954 when they went to St. Louis, the team stayed at the Chase Hotel, the black players had to stay a few miles away at the Adams Hotel, a third-rate hotel; Jackie Robinson went into the Chase Hotel and said he wanted to be served like everyone else, so it became very acceptable; Irvin said they had an opportunity, so they took advantage of it, and he and Ernie Banks stayed there; but some other players, Gene Baker and Sam Jones wouldn't stay there because of the previous discrimination (00:26:40 to 00:34:42) Track 10 - (Interviewer talks about integrated military) Irvin talks about Southern influence in government; human nature to keep someone subjugated as long as possible because don't want to lose their status, but for the good of the country, for fair play, have to remember how you treat someone; same situation in South Africa now, need to have a friendly transformation; nobody wants bloodshed and strife, but seems that is the only way to get something done; not much happened until after Martin Luther King was killed, and then there was change (00:34:42 to 00:38:05) Track 11 - Greatest Negro League players, Satchel Paige dominated as a pitcher; Josh Gibson and Buck Leonard as hitters; just before that, the people Irvin looked up to were Oscar Charleston and Martin Dihigo, greatest players of all time; Dihigo was a legend in Cuba, a legend in Mexico, a legend anywhere he played; the players with Irvin were Mule Suttles, Ray Dandridge, Willie Wells, Leon Day, Roy Campanella, Jonas Gaines, Bill Wright, Quincy Trouppe, Cool Papa Bell; if they had taken black players 10 years sooner, would have gotten the cream of the crop; after the War, a lot of great players came along, Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson, Minnie Minoso; (?) Simpson; had they integrated earlier there were 50-60-70 guys that could have played Major League ball (00:38:05 to 00:39:58) Track 12 - On comedy teams, the Indianapolis Clowns, people flocked to see it; Irvin hated to play them, didn't think baseball should be played that way (00:39:58 to 00:41:15) Track 13 - On seeing John Henry Lloyd play near the end of his career; managed by a great shortstop, Dick Lundy, also near the end of his career; Biz Mackie taught Roy Campanella how to catch, one of the great catchers, had a rifle of an arm; hears about Smokey Joe Williams but never saw him pitch: saw a great pitcher named Slim Jones, he spent all his money one year at a bar, and pawned his overcoat, caught pneumonia and died; no one over-extended themselves to help someone else; the veterans wouldn't help the younger players for fear of losing their jobs; made you work and practice harder; today's players don't have to work as hard, older players can still get good contracts; on how they treated Babe Ruth, he saved baseball, with the home runs and publicity, threw him away like an old shoe, now try to make amends, they should have paid Ruth just to do nothing (00:41:15 to 00:47:34) Track 14 - On Jackie Robinson being feisty; didn't know Jackie before the Dodgers; Robinson was in the Army and was released, and played with the Kansas City Monarchs, went to Venezuela to play, and word got around he might sign with Brooklyn, some guys tried to help him (tape runs out) (00:47:34 to 00:48:58) Side Two -- Track 1 - (Picks up in the middle of comment) On Jackie Robinson making it better for all of the black players, good for baseball, good for the gate, changed the whole American system, particularly in the sports arena; Robinson was given a job with Chock Full O' Nuts; you would think that baseball would have found a place for him; Joe DiMaggio had it the same way, he was the pride of the Yankees, but had to get his own job outside; baseball should have taken care of these guys (00:00:00 to 00:02:44) Track 2 - Irvin could have been the first black player, before the Army he could do all five things: run, hit, field, throw and hit for power; served in England, Belgium and France but there was no reason for his unit to be there, they wouldn't let the black soldiers fight, had to clean up and build roads; he came out of the War with a nervous condition, so he wasn't as good afterwards; went to Puerto Rico to try to get back in the game, but was never as good; still was able to contribute to baseball; in 1936, playing in high school he batted .666; his cousin told the Stones he would be a good candidate to break the color barrier (00:02:44 to 00:07:14) Track 3 - On discontinuing beer sales in stadiums, because fans are out of control; was not the case in former years; for example, when they won the pennant in 1951, Bobby Thomson hit a home run and they all converged on home plate; walk 400 feet to clubhouse behind center field; the fans were allowed on the field and treated it like hallowed ground, just wanted to walk where Alvin Dark or Eddie Stanky played; the fans didn't try to steal their hats or tear their uniforms; fans were very reserved, as opposed to the year when Chris Chambliss hit a home run and had to fight his way off the field; in Philadelphia once the security people needed dogs and horses to keep order; Shea Stadium in '69 was disgraceful (interviewer Roberts talks about seeing a ballplayer shot in Mexico in '53); Irvin recalls when the Cardinals played Detroit and they had a bottle-throwing incident; today, fans hide their beer and hard stuff, they smoke marijuana and get out of control, and something must be done to put a stop to it (00:07:14 to 00:13:04) Track 4 - On Willie Mays, he was electrifying, had charisma, could do it all on the field, one of the greatest; he was the greatest fielder Irvin ever saw; he never saw Tris Speaker, or Ty Cobb, saw DiMaggio and Terry Moore and Richie Ashburn; Mays could cover more ground and make more impossible catches than anyone else, had 660 home runs, MVP awards, could have been MVP for 10 years in a row, always there to make the crucial play in the game; when Mays started to play in the All-Star Games, he was dominant; (Ted) Williams, Joe (DiMaggio, Henry Aaron all great hitters, but Mays dominated the field; before the War, DiMaggio was the perfect ballplayer, team leader, did everything with grace and ease, a great clutch hitter, classic stance and swing; after the Army, lost some of that; Henry Aaron a good ballplayer, but didn't have the flair that Mays had; Roberto Clemente, same thing, Frank Robinson, all good players, but Mays was a cut above in his ability to produce excitement (00:13:04 to 00:17:28) Track 5 - On the defensive players getting lost in the statistics; Mays made the greatest catch Irwin ever saw, in 1951 in Brooklyn, an afternoon game, leading 2-1 in the top of the 9th, bases loaded, they put a kid named Bobby Morgan in to pinch hit, he was a dead pull hitter, (Larry?) Jansen was pitching, and Morgan hit a solid line drive in left-center, a real shot in between left field and center field, at the crack of the bat, Mays took off, ran and dove 10 feet along the wall and backhanded the ball and caught it; elbow hit him in the head and he knocked himself out but he held onto the ball; manager (Leo) Durocher and team doctor (?) Bowman went out to check Mays out, and he told the doctor he was "just resting after that long run;" on the way back in, the Dodgers came out, and Duke Snider, Pee Wee Reese said he had to do it again, because the catch was not humanly possible; the next inning, (Roy) Campanella hit a home run and they won 3-2; sports editor Joe Reichler of the Associated Press rated it the greatest catch of all time; the catch that gets a lot of publicity is the one that Mays made in the World Series off of Vic Wertz, the catch and then the throw, but in Pittsburgh, Mays made one even better, Rocky Nelson, first baseman for Pittsburgh hit a line drive directly over Mays' head, pitcher Sal Magli tried to slip a fastball by him; and the wind blew the ball, but Mays reached out and grabbed the ball in his bare hand; Durocher said they'd give Mays the silent treatment and told him he missed the catch, so Mays would have to go out and do it again; Branch Rickey, Joe Brown were at the game and said they'd never seen a catch like that (00:17:28 to 00:25:30.5) Track 6 - On outfielders knowing where the ball is going to be hit because they know what the pitcher is going to throw; shortstops anticipate also, getting a jump on the ball really helps you; you can "feel" where the man is going to hit the balls; that's what made Mays' Wertz catch so great, because Mays had to go all the way to right center to catch it; after he caught the ball, he wheeled around and threw it to second, runner Larry Doby was almost at third base and had to run back to re-tag the bag and wasn't able to go on and score; Mays made some other great catches in Pittsburgh and San Francisco, when he and Bobby Bonds went up for the ball; in 1964, playing in the All-Star Game at Shea Stadium, bases loaded, Elston Howard was the hitter and Mays caught the ball that should have been a triple, saving three or four runs (00:25:30.5 to 00:29:17) Track 7 - On getting fooled by where the ball was going, if you're fast enough, you can re-adjust, the secret of a good outfielder; when the ball is hit, have to have the foresight to leave immediately and go where the ball is catchable (00:29:17 to 00:30:35) Track 8 - On differences in baseball, the attitude is different, the fellows today don't have the hungry attitude that the older player did, they make so much money, they can afford to not be as intent; when Irvin came along, baseball was king and there was a lot of talent; now, not as much talent, and many more clubs; they don't play with the intensity or flair; don't stay in the Minor Leagues long enough to learn their trade before they come to the Majors; sign long-term contracts so they don't try as hard; they don't make contact with the ball, they strike out more, 150 or more times a year; they steal more bases today; Astroturf makes it a different game, have to play deeper; the closeness is not there between teammates, you used to ride the train together, play cards together, got to know the sportswriters, today everybody flies and goes their separate ways; the players today hideout from autograph-seekers; they don't hang out to interact with fans; today, players sell autographs; kids today are not hungry, never known adversity; older players didn't know anything about drugs, might have a beer after the game, but that was it; no marijuana or cocaine, and it wasn't popular to drink too much whiskey, only one or two; all of these are differences in the game; times are looser now; another real important change, they've never known hard times, never had a Depression (00:30:35 to 00:36:58) Track 9 - On getting away from multi-year contracts; Irvin discusses Andre Dawson not being as hungry or playing as well after signing a $2 million contract; Fred Lynn a wonderful ball player, but not after getting a big contract; (Dave?) Parker, was one of the best ballplayers, but got involved with drugs and injury; (George?) Foster, got too much too soon (00:36:58 to 00:38:42) Track 10 - On greatest day in baseball, 1951 World Series when they played the Yankees, he went 4-5, made a couple good catches in the outfield and stole home, the first time that had been done in about 30 years; he was the clutch man in '51; next year, he broke his ankle in spring training, cut his career short; in '51, every athlete should experience what they did, being 13 ½ games behind in mid-August, being able to make that up and then win it all; "the shot heard ‘round the world," he thinks about it and still gets a thrill; Durocher egged them on, they were lucky, and luck is part of it; they got the job done; Durocher told Bobby (Thomson), if you ever hit one, hit it now; Irvin made the only out in that inning, (Alvin) Dark singled, (Don) Mueller singled, Irvin fouled out to Hodges, but (Whitey) Lockman doubled; they took out (Don) Newcombe and brought in Ralph Branca; first pitch was a high inside fastball, and it was a strike, they threw the same pitch, and he really whacked it (00:38:42 to 00:43:14) Track 11 - On working for Durocher as manager, he was strict, stern, knew baseball, was fair; probably couldn't have won that year with any other manager, kept saying they didn't have to win but see how close they could come (00:43:14 to 00:44:36) Track 12 - On Giants having a relatively stable club for several years; Mays coming up freed Irvin up to go back to the outfield and Lockman to come in and play first base; Bobby Thomson to go to third base; got pitching staff squared away with (Jim) Hearn, (Dave) Koslo, (Larry) Jansen and (Sal) Magli; (George) Spencer and (Al) Corwin were relief pitchers, then really started to roll, won 16 in a row, won 39 out of 46 (00:44:36 to 00:45:41) Track 13 - Toughest pitcher on Irvin was Ewell Blackwell, tough on a lot of people, he was mean, and tough; one time Irwin hit a bases-loaded home run to win the game, and the next time, Blackwell nailed him in the ribs; Newcombe was tough; a guy like (Robin?) Roberts had real good stuff, good control and wasn't that mean; Harry Brecheen, a left-hander but tough; Curt Simmons had a herky-jerky motion; Big Bob Rush for the Chicago Cubs; Carl Erskine was tough; Simmons was one of the fastest throwers (00:45:41 to 00:48:06) Track 14 - When Irvin quit baseball, he went to Rheingold Beer Co., as a special representative, had to take a cut in salary, and really dig in to put his kids through college, stayed with Rheingold for 11 years (tape runs out; entire comment is on CTA-844 Side 2, but is not as good quality.) (00:48:06 to 00:48:56) Cassette 2Side Two -- Track 1 - All of this is duplicated on CTA-833 Side 2; that is the better quality recording and those tracks should be used (00:00:00 to 00:33:16) Track 2 - (New material, not included on CTA-833 Side 2) When Irvin quit baseball, he went to Rheingold Beer Co., as a special representative, had to take a cut in salary, and really dig in to put his kids through college, stayed with Rheingold for 11 years, from '57 to '68, in September '68, went to work in the commissioner's office under Bowie Kuhn, until 1984; retired and living in Florida ever since (00:33:16 to 00:34:50) Track 3 - Commissioner's job is a thankless one, have to rule against the owners, and they are the ones who elect you; players have their own association, and if you rule against an owner, he can make it difficult for you; all the owners want is a "yes-man;" why Peter Ueberroth is only going to serve one term (00:34:50 to 00:36:11) Track 4 - On pitchers being penalized for knock-down pitches today; knock-down pitches let the batters know that the inside part of the plate belongs to the pitcher; (interviewer talks about Daryl Strawberry) (0:36:11 to 00:37:17) Track 5 - Irvin would have loved to come up to the Major Leagues sooner, when he was 18-19, he could run like a deer, had a great arm, was a clutch hitter; would have been great to play in Brooklyn; he would have liked to play in Boston where left field was shorter, would have liked to hit 600-700 home runs, but that didn't happen; happy to get into the Hall of Fame on the special committee, the guys who judged his talent, Buck Leonard, Cool Papa Bell, because they saw him when he could really play; would like to play today to earn enough money to be independent and support your family; with the pension plan today, there will be no indigent players; Irvin would have loved to manage, he had the temperament to manage, would have loved to stay in the game like Chuck Tanner or Tom Lasorda; working in the commissioner's office was very gratifying, educational, allowed him to associate with the guys he played with and against, and to see youngsters coming up; still love the game, watch on TV or at the ballpark; wished the players would appreciate it more now (interviewer talks about Stan Coveleski) Irvin points to Judy Johnson, a terrific ballplayer, got sick and doesn't have money to maintain himself; enough money in the pension fund, they should help the older players, Carl Hubbell, same thing; the Giants never had a profit-sharing plan, (Horace) Stoneham took care of some guys personally, but when he sold the club, that was it (00:37:17 to 00:43:20) Track 6 - Wrapping up, taking pictures, interviewer talks about the interviews being in the Hall of Fame library and restricting access to serious baseball historians; Irvin talks about a sponsor getting a bunch of the old Negro League players together to discuss all of the players from the Negro League, pay tribute to some of those players; and send money to some indigent players, asks Roberts' opinion of the plan; they discuss Roy Campanella being in the wheelchair for 31 years (tape runs out) (00:43:20 to 00:48:05) Public Access NotePlease note that not all works are on view at all times - their availability is subject to change per the discretion of the Museum staff. Only a portion of NBHFM's collection is currently online and the information presented here is subject to updates and additions based on research and imaging activities. The images, titles, and descriptions are products of their time. If you have corrections or additional information about this object, please email research@baseballhall.org to help improve our records. This material is made available for private study, scholarship, and research use. Every effort has been made to accurately determine the rights status of images. Please email us if you have further information on the rights status of an image contrary to or in addition to the information in our records. For more information or access to a high resolution reproduction (some fees may apply), contact: National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Giamatti Research Center, research@baseballhall.org, 607-547-0330.